In this episode, we bring back Ms. Li Nanyang to talk about two influential books she has written.
One is called “I Had Such a Mother”, published in 1997 and released in 2002. The other book is called “I had such a stepmother”, which was written on Christmas Day 2019 and will be published in June 2020. The publication of her book, “A Mother,” sparked strong reactions in the country. Critics and praisers alike were numerous. And her book “Stepmother” and related articles, once syndicated on the Internet in audio, were called oral histories by viewers.
Some viewers wrote to her saying, “What you write is not only Li Rui’s family affairs, but also history. The family history reflects the national history, and it is the real, untampered national history. However, I think that these two books of Ms. Li Nanyang reflect not only history but also the present.
Ms. Li Nanyang’s father, Li Rui, was a former secretary of Mao Zedong and a representative of the liberal wing of the Chinese Communist Party. Li Nanyang spent several years taking Li Rui’s diary overseas, organizing and preserving it, and eventually donating it to the Hoover Institution in the United States. Having lived in the United States for 30 years, Li Nanyang is still interested in reflecting on his father’s life experiences and the Chinese Communist system.
It is a great pleasure to have Ms. Li Nanyang here today for another interview.
Nanyang Li: Hello, Fang Fei, and hello to our audience.
Moderator: Okay, today I’m going to talk about these two articles you wrote, these two books. I Have Such a Mother” is about your biological mother, and “I Have Such a Stepmother” is about your father’s second wife, with whom you lived for almost 40 years. Let’s talk about your mother’s book first. The title “I Have Such a Mother” is slightly derogatory in meaning. So I would like to ask you first, if you could sum up your mother’s life in one simple paragraph, what would you say?
My mother spent her life reforming her mind and would not be a wife and mother
Li Nanyang: She is an alienated person who has done only one thing in her life, and that is to reform her mind. She didn’t do it in her life, she wouldn’t be a human daughter, she wouldn’t be a human wife, and she wouldn’t be a mother, a great failure.
Moderator: But in terms of life experience, she and your father met in Yan’an, and later also went through a divorce, remarriage, until later the second divorce, after which the two were separated.
Li Nanyang: We didn’t meet in Yan’an, but before Yan’an they got married. They met in Wuhan, where my father was attending Wuhan University and my mother was a high school student, and they joined the 129th Movement together. They were of the 129 generation, except that my father was four years older than her, a college student, and my mother was a high school student.
Moderator: But they went through their first divorce in Yan’an, didn’t they?
Li Nanyang: Yes, it was because of the rescue movement in Yan’an, that is, on April 6, 1943, my father was arrested. After they got married, although they went into Yan’an and could not be together every day, they were after all husband and wife, so his diary reflected that he did not believe her.
But then the big criticism, the small criticism, and finally especially Deng Liqun to help her, and then she and Deng Liqun had an inappropriate relationship, then the marriage also came to an end.
Moderator: Ms. Nanyang, you just mentioned that your evaluation of your mother, she is an alienated person, as a wife, as a mother is actually a failure. I know she later remarried your father and then divorced him after she entered Beijing, and then did a lot of denunciation of your father. You were also very unhappy with your mother when you were nine years old because you were implicated by your father and your situation changed dramatically at once. So I would like to tell you from your point of view why she was a failure as a wife and why she was a failure as a mother?
The father had an accident, the mother has been revealing to the children to vent
Li Nanyang: I think that as a wife, the normal Chinese wife, that is, your husband and wife a, when the husband is in trouble, should be the two suffer together. This example, Xin Fengxia is a very typical of the traditional Chinese culture of women. This is what people think Chinese wives, and wives around the world, should basically be like. The husband had an accident, but you are a husband who has lived with him for so many years, you know him best, should know that he is not a counter-revolutionary, should suffer together, but she chose to expose completely.
Then as a mother, in fact, I understand her, with 3 children of her own, her husband had something wrong, there is a lot of depression in her heart. But as a, how to say, not to say good mother, as a normal mother should also be able to learn restraint, is not to vent their anger to the children. Especially with a very violent means to beat the child, or sometimes just punish you all night long, you are not allowed to sleep, using very abusive language to insult you. So I think she is a failure as a mother, not a normal mother.
Moderator: What do you mean when you say that she was an alienated person who only focused on ideological reform throughout her life?
Li Nanyang: That is to say, as a human being, should have a normal human nature, but she was indoctrinated by the Communist Party, she did not think she was wrong when she did these things, she was very convinced that she was right, she often for my teaching, she said it was the struggle between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie for successors. All her attitudes towards me were because she stood for the proletariat, which was alienating, right? It’s not a normal relationship between human beings, let alone a mother and a daughter. How is it a class struggle relationship, right?
Moderator: Oh my God, what was she trying to do when she kept denouncing your father? It seems like she kept on exposing, right?
Li Nanyang: Yes, in fact, this should be analyzed from the character, do not simply say that she is for what, for self-preservation. In fact, at first, she thought that my father had made a mistake, and when my father was in the Northern Wilderness, she still sent him cookies, food stamps, newspapers and so on.
But then my father came back from the Northern Wilderness, she kept quarreling and fighting, and my father couldn’t live his life. The day she argued again was because it was a difficult time, food was very tight, everyone had a ration of food, on that day the steamed buns our family made large and small, as a result my father took a large steamed bun to eat, and then my mother was furious. Then my father felt that this day is really impossible to live, and then my mother scolded to the end said, we go to divorce, my father said yes, I agree.
As a result, the two immediately took the bus and went to the court. So my mother’s personality is I can negative you, I scold you to death, I beat you to death.
In order to protect herself, my mother beat my father to death.
My mother even forced my father with a pistol once, and once with a rock, smashing my father’s head in. She is I don’t care how I treat you, you have to put up with me. Now I don’t actually want a real divorce, and as a result you actually agreed to it, then she screwed my father to death. This is actually a personality that makes a lot of specific cases to be analyzed on a case-by-case basis, not that all people’s practices are a box to put up, not a face. For my mother’s denunciation, I think she was a personality.
But after the Cultural Revolution, I think she was just, I think she was scared, she was trying to protect herself. At that time, I think she believed in Mao’s theory of continuing revolution, and she later said that she felt that there were very few people who wanted revolution now, and that only people like her and Jiang Qing really wanted revolution. Yes, who could stand her kind of revolution?
Moderator: That means you said that she was an alienated person. I think your mother, because at that time (early) I feel that she seemed to be particularly talented, young and beautiful, and then known as how. She came from a relatively wealthy family, and when she was fooled by the so-called communist ideals, she pursued them and then went to the Communist Party in Yan’an. But after this, because I had read some books about the Yan’an reformation movement. So do you think this process of alienation, this transformation of Yan’an at that time, played a big role? At least it was the first step.
Li Nanyang: Yes, she was only 18 years old when she entered Yan’an, you now think 18 years old is a child, she was actually a blank sheet of paper into. She had a longing for the revolution, and she felt that the revolution could achieve equality for all. And after entering Yan’an, life was hard at that time, and many girls could not bear it. She had a very good friend who later returned to Wuhan and could not stand it. She couldn’t take a bath, she ate millet all day long, and then boiled beans in black water, nothing. Many people can not stand it, she lived this level she was over. But then the rescue movement came up, and then that kind of ideological indoctrination.
In fact, it is said that you intellectuals are very dirty, the basic power of the revolution is the peasants. The peasants were great, which she later accepted.
She didn’t know how to communicate with them, but she felt that those were great people, and she needed to be rehabilitated. I think at that time, she had a certain amount of self-reflection, and a certain amount of petty bourgeoisie, how can I put it?
The Romantic kind of normal human nature was slowly extinguished, that is, to lean on the workers and peasants, and my mother learned to curse at that time. Just like the beginning of the Cultural Revolution, where we have never heard of cursing “fuck” ah, the first time we heard “fuck”, we thought how this kind of, but then slowly get used to it, this is a sign of the revolution. Later on, my mother would also curse.
Moderator: You just said a lifetime of self-transformation, in Yan’an when the foundation was laid, and then the Communist Party instilled this, she kept on turning this way.
Mother only said the words in the newspaper revolutionary teaching
Li Nanyang: Yes, later this comparison, in fact, because I was born in that family, I did not feel anything, because my mother spoke to us all day and night is the words of the newspaper, are revolutionary teaching, there is no mother’s asking how to eat, how to dress, in the factory, just into the factory, physical strength to stand, can not stand? None of this. All day long, she said, “What’s in the newspaper today, what do you want to study? Later, when I had a boyfriend with my husband, who was a child from a working family, my father and mother would write letters asking me about my family’s well-being.
Moderator: Oh my God, the gap, this one heaven, one underground.
Li Nanyang: Yes, yes, yes. Later on, I came to understand why she was alienated, she was no longer a normal mother, she had completely put herself in a revolutionary shell. Her every action, every word and deed is a dialogue and communication with her children, it’s all political, and if you don’t agree with her, she thinks you’re bourgeois. She wants to pull you back into the ranks of the proletariat, and if you don’t listen to her, then you’re in a hostile position, and she’ll report you to the party branch of your unit to get the party branch to help you.
Moderator: So I remembered that one of the audience members wrote to you, saying that the Communist Party was a big black vat, no matter what or who was in it, it would get very black once it was dyed.
Li Nanyang: Yes. After this article was written, I was not expecting this kind of response. I think for me, I later realized what the significance of this article was. It is that the Communist Party said that its revolution was for the sake of the toiling masses, especially for the happy life and beauty of the new generation, the young generation, the children’s generation, who went to struggle and shed blood and sacrifice. I said that the children in this family could not survive and were living in such a tormented state, is this revolution not a particularly hypocritical thing?
Writing “long and short talk about mothers” is not so noble for revolutionaries
So I thought that I wanted to tell the true story of our family to let people know that the Communist Party and these revolutionaries are not as noble as they say they are.
But that is to say, when I started to write, because I may also be a person’s personality, I have never been accustomed to freedom, when I was small, I always confronted with the teacher, the Cultural Revolution began to always confront the party branch, and later confronted with the military representatives, is a little bit of the backbone of the brain of such a person. So I wrote it at the time, I did not think anything about it. Only later did I realize that there were so many repercussions, so many people disagreed, so many people’s indignation. Later I was just happy that I felt that my article was still read by so many people.
Moderator: It had an effect.
Li Nanyang: Yes, this makes me very happy. That was the article my father helped me change, and my title at the time was “Long and short talk about mother”, because I had written a long and short talk about my father, so I wanted to long and short talk about mother, and then my father gave advice, you write “I have such a mother My father suggested that you write “I have such a mother”. He said one is a neutral word, so it is slightly derogatory, so that the meaning of your article is expressed, because I write about my mother is not a glorification, right, I am a straightforward narrative. I think my father’s recognition of my writing is a great encouragement to me.
Moderator: I think he changed the name very well. The meaning was conveyed, and it was conveyed in a very subtle way. So after you wrote this article, he approved of it, right? He said it was well written, and he didn’t feel that his wife was like this, or that she was embarrassed, or anything.
Li Nanyang: No, no. I think one of my father’s greatest characteristics is that truth is good, as long as you do not fiction, you write the real story, that’s good. I think this is a very valuable quality of my father. I don’t particularly care what people say about you, I think I just need to tell the truth, right or wrong, how you look at it is your business, I don’t need to worry about it, right? Many people later said, “This is how you should write, that is how you should write, who has been offended by this, who has been offended by that, I said if you write like this, I can’t write anything. I can only write what I want to write, as for what others say, ouch, there are many people in the world, right?
Moderator: If he thought he should write that, he could have written one himself, right? So I think your father’s attitude was like this, after your article was published, your mother was still alive, so she read it, do you know what her reaction was?
Li Nanyang: I heard people tell me that my mother slammed the article on the coffee table, and she was very angry. Carma Hinton went to interview me and my mom at that time.
Moderator: Who?
Nanyang Li: Carma Hinton is the director of Morning Sun. She went to see my mother after my article was published, and she said that my mother was very excited and told her a lot of things, saying how my father was a counter-revolutionary, how he was, and how he was still trying to clear himself anyway, and then said that I was also a very bad child growing up. Then Karma felt that my mother was quite agitated, and then she said, “Why don’t I come back another day to listen to it, and it turned out that my mother came back another day and said that Karma was a detective sent by my father.
So I think a particularly good opportunity was missed, because my mother did not tell anyone about this, and later said, it is said that she recorded a tape, after the publication of my article, she recorded a tape to the Ministry of three cadres of the Bureau, is to have to defend themselves, but later never got the tape, and do not know whether the tape is there.
But I think it’s interesting to mention that I have a friend who went to Deng Liqun’s house, which is a friend of a friend, equal to the words passed to me by friends, saying that in Deng Liqun’s house on the coffee table, saw the open magazine, which has my article, it means that Deng Liqun is seen. But I think Deng Liqun saw another supporting evidence, just shortly after the article was published, he had a conversation with young people, which seems to have been on the Internet, he said that young people will make mistakes, I have made mistakes when I was young.
At least for him, he thinks I am telling the truth, right? Many people say, I should not expose my mother’s private life, her privacy, but I think, you a Deng Liqun or my mother, they are senior officials of the Communist Party, when you are a senior official, you have no privacy, because you are a public figure, and you are responsible for the people, the people certainly want to know your The people certainly want to know about your personal character.
At least from Deng Liqun’s reaction, he thinks I didn’t make a false statement, right, I’m telling the truth. And many people also said, you should not write when your mother is alive, wait for your mother to die and then write. Then my mother died writing, people say you made it up, how you your mother alive you do not write, Deng Liqun alive how you do not write, right. So I said at least Deng Liqun is alive and my mother is alive I wrote, no one said I was a rumor, this authenticity will definitely come down.
Why did you write “I have such a stepmother”?
Moderator: So let’s talk about your stepmother’s book, and then we’ll talk about people’s feedback. Your stepmother’s book was written in, quite late, in 2019, when you were in the United States, why did you want to write “I have such a stepmother”, such an article?
Li Nanyang: I think it was forced out of me. On February 20, 2020 (note: read 2019), the fourth day of my father’s death, Spiegel had a program for the China Institute, and did a special program with Zhou Xiaozheng, Chen Xiaoping, and an American professor named Zhou Xirui, and a Taiwanese “Words Across the Horizon” host, Shi Dong. “The host of the program, Shi Dong, participated in this interview. At that time, I said a sentence, in fact, I was to remind, I said as long as Zhang Yuzhen, that is, my stepmother does not put her hand to, my father has donated to Hoover on this information, that is, my stepmother did everything, I will not say anything, I will not say anything.
Later, Professor Zhou Xiaozheng also said, “Oh, you tolerate some ah, is your stepmother also quite difficult to take care of your father for forty years. I actually didn’t even think about it at that time, I just said, I’m warning you. That is, you do not do this thing, is the last time I saw my father, I was leaving when I had gone to the door of the ward, and then my father reached out his hand very anxious very anxious, reached out his hand on, also can not say words is anxious, and then our family that aunt read and said, the old man called Aunt Zhang let us go in, shake hands with me. I rushed back, and after I came back, then that is Zhang Yuzhen shook hands with me in front of my father. Then my father was particularly pleased and smiled. After smiling, he left.
I felt at that time that my father was actually saying to Zhang Yuzhen, “I’ll leave all my things to you, I’ll leave all my money to you. My only daughter, who is close to me, took all my information and donated it to the United States. That is, you two this thing to reach, that is, Zhang Yu Zhen after you do not embarrass this girl, this daughter of mine, in fact I think my father means this, otherwise I walked to the door must let me come back, let Zhang Yu Zhen shake my hand again, right. In fact, I recall that my father was a kind of mandate, I just said to Zhang Yuzhen, you shook hands with her, you are a promise to me.
I left you do not embarrass this girl, but I did not expect Zhang Yuzhen finally, really sued me to the Xicheng District Court. And joint my brother and sister, they are joint plaintiffs, they are suing what? In fact, they said that she should have inherited all these things, and she inherited them all. I shouldn’t have brought it to the United States at all, I didn’t have that right. And later on, she was even more unlike, later on, she countersued me and Stanford University in the United States, and what was her argument at that time? It became that I was smashing doors and locks and stealing these things out alive.
Later my brother’s daughter also brought this claim of hers to Hong Kong, and an article was published in Hong Kong saying that, according to Grandma Zhang, all of Grandpa’s materials were stolen by my aunt, that is, without Grandpa’s permission, when Grandpa was not at home, smashing the door and breaking the lock to steal to the United States. I think this is a betrayal of my father, because in fact, I think my father’s information is so complete that I treasure it very much.
This is the accumulation of his whole life, and this is what my father felt very gratifying, that is, he was so diligent in his life, writing from his twenties until the first few days before he died, that is, the first few days before he was hospitalized, he kept writing, this is a period of more than seventy years, nearly eighty years of such a living history of China.
And you know very well that this thing, the Communists want to return is to destroy, right. I don’t say that you are a member of the Communist Party, that you are a Marxist as you have sworn, that’s all nonsense. You are as Li Rui’s wife, Li Rui treats you so well, for you to let his daughter suffer so much, is to spoil you. You end up betraying Li Rui like this, you as a person, as a traditional Chinese culture of the wife, it really does not make sense.
Then I felt like writing about why? I think my mother was a pure petty-bourgeois intellectual. She joined the revolution for the sake of her ideals and was dyed by the Communist Party. My stepmother, the grassroots workers and peasants of Mao Zedong’s revolution, was a dye in the vat, and they were the ones who dyed the young people who joined the revolution.
Throwing away everything for selfish interests – the essence of the Communist Party
I want you to know that these peasants joined the revolution, they were peasants themselves, they just want to earn their own selfish interests, for their own selfish interests, what morality, what love, what love of husband and wife, they have nothing, this is the essence of the Communist Party. So I now see that the leaders of the American Black Lives Matter, I think it is exactly the same as Zhang Yuzhen, that is, they use the banner of Marxism, saying that he believes in Marxism, and then they use this banner to make themselves rich, can make themselves especially rich. Of course, they don’t care about the people they say we want to help, we want to rescue, we want to liberate, they have no feelings.
Moderator: So I see that you wrote in your article that the Communist Party relied on these basic forces, or one of the most basic forces, these rogue proletarians, to make its fortune. So you put your stepmother under such a definition of rogue proletarians.
Li Nanyang: Yes, you see, many people say that I wrote this book about my stepmother, which is very unforgivable, that I am narrow-minded and small-minded, and that I have made these trivial things out of my family, which has damaged the glory of Li Rui, or the image that the Communist Party will destroy, and I have helped the Communist Party to destroy the image of Li Rui, and I have also damaged the image of many people who support me. The image in the minds of many people who support me.
I think this, one is that I never pay attention to the image of this person, I do not have any interest in the image, I do not care about it, then I think I write Zhang Yuzhen this motive, I think I have been very clear, not like when writing the mother to go, I think I am writing history. It’s because the Communist Party is, as I told you last time I did a program with you, I always saw the Communist Party as a very illusory and an illusory great party. Later I realized that the party is made up of people one by one, right? My mother ended up enjoying the treatment of a deputy minister, she was an 11th grade cadre, my stepmother was a 17th grade cadre, but she also enjoyed the medical treatment of a deputy minister later.
Who benefited from this revolution? What people benefited from the revolution? And in the end, Zhang Yuzhen, for her own selfish interests, could have helped the Communists snatch back such precious information as her husband, which she had donated to Hoover during her lifetime and wanted to keep for posterity. And to make up rumors to bite people like a mad dog, this kind of character, I think, should reveal is, the ugly nature of the Communist Party. This is my way of leaving history with a how can I put it, something concrete, that is to make the Communist Party concrete and personal.
Because the Communist Party is made up of one person after another, if you reveal such a virtue of a vice ministerial cadre. I think at least this is not a leaf to know the autumn, it can also give you a glimpse of a side of the.
Moderator: It is the feeling that your whole, because she lived with your father for forty years, so you deal with her is actually full of time, so is it possible to say that you have been dealing with her is such a humiliating what, is to organize your father’s information?
Li Nanyang: Yes, this is actually at that time to organize my father’s information this or secondary, I actually from the emotional, I think my father’s life is really too bad, is sitting in prison for more than 20 years, and eight years of single prison, eight years of single prison I put myself in the position of thinking, that eight years I do not know if I can survive out. If I get out, I can not be nervous enough, because you want to Lu Dingyi after some people come out, including Xi Zhongxun these people, finally nervous are not normal. My father came out, not only normal nerves, and all day long so happy a person.
Moderator: very optimistic.
Li Nanyang: I think it’s quite remarkable, and later in his second marriage, I saw very clearly, my father actually knows very well, there is nothing a lot of true feelings, that is, the family called on his body, is to get his benefits, so I think. I think people, especially the more they come to old age, when my father first got married, it was not particularly obvious, to later eighty years old, ninety years old, actually have a great attachment to their relatives loved ones. The aunt in our family said that as soon as you come back, the old man started to be happy before you came back.
So then I thought I had to give him this real affection. I felt that I had not been alienated by the Communist Party, so I felt that I had to show my father that there were people in the world who really loved him. So that’s why I put up with the humiliation, I just kept putting up with her, and I think this stepmother really opened a window for me. Because I used to come into contact with my father’s friends, what Li Pu, Yu Gang, Li Shu ah are all 129 intellectuals of the generation, including what Yu Guangyuan, Li Chang such people, Zeng Yanxiu, Ding Cong ah are intellectuals.
I have not come into contact with this, Mao Zedong’s grassroots, I really have not come into contact with, is that I went to the countryside to work those peasants, because they are ordinary peasants, so they are not so arrogant. This person is a revolutionary peasant, which is very scary, especially scary, she is the one who made me really see Mao’s generation clearly, in fact I am quite grateful to her, if I did not have contact with her for forty years, I think I would not have seen the Communist Party so thoroughly.
That is to say, the basic force of the Communist Party, the basic components are really human scum. Without her I don’t think I would have seen it so thoroughly. It is really to pursue their own personal interests to maximize, maximize, and finally many people later said, she did not help the Communist Party to fight the lawsuit, she will not have a house, she will not have a car, that is, Li Nanyang you do not understand her at all, do not sympathize with her. I think this is a very bastard logic, right? No house, no car, you can not live? How can the people live? You were a peasant, and you said you wanted to liberate the whole world’s hardworking people, right?
The old revolution was very bloody and inhumane
Moderator: As a person, how would you describe her? It is your stepmother.
Li Nanyang: I think it’s a, how can I put it? One of them is the old revolutionary, which developed the ignorance and bad roots of the Chinese peasants to the extreme because of the revolution and because of the old. As the old man said, the Chinese peasants have their backward side, but they have a very pure and kind side. But because he joined the revolution, he developed his backwardness and ignorance, and the most dirty side to the extreme, and threw away all the original simplicity of the peasants.
So their rule will be so bloody, in fact, you see that Wang Zhen some army people, really very rude, how to say it, very inhumane, you see them at that time in Xinjiang just liberated, in Xinjiang is the implementation of those policies, ah, there is Wang Zhen a scolding people, is also very difficult to hear. I think this person has no culture but wants to do the revolution, but to do the revolution is even more terrible.
Moderator: In fact, I think reading your book there is another feeling, that is, in fact, your father and her is also in the humiliation. She actually bullied your father, but your father always put up with him, and even he asked you to put up with him, no matter who was justified and who was not. In short, you must be asked to back down, must be asked to give in, looks like it is a bit unfair. But I have a question, that is, your father is actually a very open-minded person, and after so many big storms, but I feel that he did not handle the family relationship well, or even poorly, do you think why?
Li Nanyang: I think another good thing about this book is that it breaks the glass heart of Chinese people. That is, Chinese people can not face the reality, in some people think, in the mind think Li Rui is very great, very glorious.
Moderator: It has to be perfect!
Li Nanyang: It must be perfect, so my book broke him. In fact, I think it’s a good thing that Chinese people have to learn to face the reality, the reality is not perfect. For my father, why is he like this? I think one is that he is an only son, he has the defects of an only son, because since childhood my grandfather died very early, my grandmother was widowed, so the two sisters and mother are to spoil him, to protect this only son, to protect this only seedling. So when he was young, he was more, how can I put it? In the family, especially after he fell, two sisters were very, very good to him, but after he came out and got married, Zhang Yuzhen was very bad to my two aunts, very rejected.
That is to say, to save Li Rui’s life can only be her Zhang Yuzhen, can not be two aunts, she simply can not tolerate. I don’t think it matters to me, but to the two sisters who saved his life, my father was not very affectionate later. I think this was a flaw in his education as an only son from childhood. Another thing I think is that this Communist Party cadres, especially senior cadres are very humane people, that is, very clearly aware that they are fathers, they have a father’s duty to their children, and to their children to have a father’s love, I think the people I came into contact with, that is, some people I respect, are very lacking, are very lacking.
It’s that they think they are the primary ones at home, because they are revolutionary and they have a higher official position. I think my father was in the Communist Party for decades, so it’s not like he couldn’t have been immaculate. I think he was also influenced and polluted by the Party culture. The greatest pollution and influence of the Party culture is that he did not put human feelings, father and daughter, husband and wife, children’s feelings first, and did not put family first, but brought the revolutionary cause, his status and rank in the revolution, into the family.
Moderator: Just replace humanity with party spirit.
Li Nanyang: Yes, that is to bring this communist concept of hierarchy, the communist concept of hierarchy is very powerful, very, very powerful, to the family as well. You see, like those children in Zhongnanhai, they all carry their own rice pots and bowls to the cafeteria to eat, right, rarely in the family, occasionally there is a party in the family, the situation, when the guests come to eat, then the children may also take a side to eat with their parents to eat together, then usually carry their own rice bowls to the cafeteria to eat ah. I think this also explains why so many of the cadres’ sons and daughters beat their teachers and the so-called rich, the rich, the rebellious, the bad and the right so ruthlessly during the Cultural Revolution, I think this kind of affection and family warmth may have had a lot to do with it since childhood.
My father wanted to save the party, I completely denied the party
Moderator: And I see that your father seems to be different from you, I read your article also said that your father is different from you, including your father he said to other people, said Li Nanyang on the Communist Party is the entire denial, her views are very naive, very extreme, we are different from each other. So you think this is a basic difference between you and your father, right?
Li Nanyang: That is, he was trying to save the Party, and he was trying to save the Party in the end. I remember when I did a program with Chen Xiaoping, I said that I had been waiting for my father’s words, that is, he told me that after he left, he would announce his resignation from the Party, and I was actually looking forward to his words. But he never did, that is, he remained in the party. I think he still has feelings for the party. I have no affection for the party at all, and I hate it. I think this is the biggest difference between us.
But what do I think is the difference between my father and my mother? My mother branded me as a class enemy and a bourgeois successor, right? My father was tolerant and forgiving, and I think the background of that article was that Zhang Yuzhen urged him to write it, that is, forced him to write it. Later he had a lot of apologies I can see, is that he this article, later on a party school editor, a fan of his, wrote a letter to him, said this Li Lao I originally have special respect for you, but I saw this interview article, you said your daughter you are different, you are to save the party, she is completely opposed to the Communist Party.
He said, this time Li Lao I have to tell you, I am on your daughter’s side, I do not agree with you. Then my father gave me this letter and said, “Look at it, you take it, you take it, this person is supporting you, this person is agreeing with you. So I think my father was very tolerant on this issue, and he knew I was different from him.
Moderator: I’ll interject. I think he may not feel so different from you in his heart, because maybe he has changed.
Li Nanyang: Yes, I think he and I are also the same way also conspire. But he has to make a gesture to show Zhang Yuzhen! In fact, I think Kang Tongbi said, this is called what old but not dead as a thief! That is to say, old age will be humiliated, old age but not death will be humiliated, will be bullied by people. I think my father later had a lot of helplessness, because he had reached the age of 100, he had no choice, he wanted a peaceful life, right?
That is, as long as you don’t make a scene, and he knows I’m not going to make a scene on my side, right! I will tolerate her, I can tolerate anything for him. So I think he gave me that letter, and later he said several times, it is the same as a polite apology, also told me, so I also understand him.
Moderator: So why do you think you have this fundamental difference with your father? That is to say, he still has a trace of illusion or feel that salvation, you feel that there is no need, there is no salvation, this party.
Li Nanyang: the buttocks determine the head ah, his buttocks sitting in the Communist Party’s high official position, he still enjoys that full ministerial treatment ah, he is still a member of the original CPC Central Committee, he still enjoys this title. I’m an ordinary citizen, I’m sitting on this chair I made for myself, I’m certainly different from him. I have no affiliation with the Communist Party, I see the Communist Party from the perspective of the common people. And especially since my stepmother, who was a deputy minister of the old Communist Party, excluded me from the family, I think that makes my vision very objective.
Moderator: For some people, they may feel that no matter what they say, family shame must not be revealed. In general, do you have any scruples or considerations in this regard?
Li Nanyang: Never. If our family is a small civilian people, then the family scandal should not be publicized, the family matter is the family matter. The Li Rui is also a celebrity, and then the fame is so big. Then this thing left, that is, many people want to read the story of the Communist Party, there is a reader especially want to hear the royal story, right? The royal stories, like Meghan and Harry, are all over the world, because people want to know about them.
I said that if I don’t write it out, maybe people will write a story about Li Rui and three women. All unknowable, right. Because this is an afterthought, you see how many court dramas have been created, instead of letting future generations create a story of Li Rui and three women for me, I would rather write it myself. After I write it out, you at least will not make things up, right?
And I think that friend said, it’s a pity that only someone at your level wrote about the inner workings of a Communist family. He said if Mao Zedong, if Lin Biao, if Liu Shaoqi, the highest and most senior officials could write the inside story of their own families, it would be such a complete history of the Communist Party, I really agree with him, and I regret that I am the only one who has written to this extent.
The daughter of Mao Zedong, the living daughter of Lin Biao, the son of Qiu Huizhu, asked Lin Doudou. She said, “Doudou would not write about your mother or Ye Qun like Nan Yang did, because she was very much at odds with Ye Qun.
I think how to say it? I think they are low, because the relationship between you and your mother Ye Qun is not your family matter. It is that we, the Chinese people, were subjected to the Cultural Revolution, especially by Lin Biao, which is also a scourge. Then the common people want to know a lot of insider things.
Birth mother and stepmother reveal the evil of the Party and Party culture
Moderator: Yes, when you were dictating this history on the Internet, it seems that many viewers did send you very positive such a feeling to share with you. I think some of them were really interesting to me, so I read them a little bit quickly. He said that some people thought that Li Nanyang was obsessing over family matters, but he said that in fact, among the many family tragedies of the mainland people, the party nature has long been dominant, and Li Nanyang wrote about his birth mother and stepmother to deeply reveal this party nature and the evil of the party culture. Do you agree?
Li Nanyang: I strongly agree. I feel that many listeners, how can I put it? It seems that I am complimenting myself. I think this is a very good starting point, they have a very good starting point.
Moderator: Yes, I think it’s actually quite interesting to read about it. Another person you recorded on your side said that there was a survivor of an old friend of her father, and she said in her letter that your father, mother and stepmother were all typical figures in the Communist Party. Who but you could have written about the thoughts and feelings of the three of them in such a realistic, concrete and nuanced way. This is also written by someone who really knows you better.
Li Nanyang: This is an aunt whose husband is also a senior Communist Party cadre. This aunt really gave me a lot of comfort and consolation, and I feel that I can get her understanding and recognition, and I am really very, very grateful to her.
Moderator: Yes, I think the feedback gave you a lot of support to continue your work. Then there was a call from an old professor in the country saying what a horrible organization it was, and the organizing minister of this party said it was similar to a gang. More than a club, it was some kind of cult. It was your father who said it was gang-like, right?
Li Nanyang: Yes, what did he say the party was called?
Moderator: Gangster.
Li Nanyang: The traditional Chinese word for “black” is Shang Hei.
Moderator: Oh! Right, right, right.
Li Nanyang: He said the gentleman does not party, the Chinese tradition is that the gentleman should not party.
Moderator: Yes, and then this Australian audience also said that listening to your story made him confirm his previous understanding of the Communist Party. On his side, he said that the CCP is a black dye bath, no matter what color you come in it is inevitable that you will not be dyed or dipped in poison, and said he did not know what time or place. And he is saying that the CCP is also a big meat grinder, there is no telling when and where, no matter what you do, you can be stirred up from the spirit to the flesh.
And then I think it’s interesting that you said something about this, which you also mentioned earlier. You said that when you read this book, because of the oral history at that time, you yourself snapped out of it and said that the most trusted and relied on force of the Communist Party was the rogue proletarians like Zhang Yuzhen. Later you said that rogues were in power, that they were rogues at home, that they were also rogues in state affairs, and that they were still only rogues in dealing with world events. The so-called powerful country is actually a rogue country. So now the so-called war wolf diplomacy of the Chinese Communist Party, everyone thinks it is very rogue, it seems to be all the way from this.
Li Nanyang: Yes, if you think about Xi Jinping’s mother, Qi Xin, she is actually also a junior. A friend of mine told me that when they had their first national women’s congress, they took a big truck from northern Shaanxi all the way to Beijing. When the Communist Party first came to power, everyone on the road knew Qi Xin and Xi Zhongxun’s wife. People were very disgusted with Qi Xin and could not understand or identify with her.
My friend had contacted Qi Xin, and she said that Qi Xin’s qualities and whatnot were not much different from Zhang Yuzhen. So I think you look at that child, you look at Xi Jinping, you look at his quality, right? I think it has something to do with the family education and the influence of the mother. You want him to come back from the team, his mother blew him back and let him go back to the team. It is also quite revolutionary ah. The first thing you need to do is to get a good idea of what you want to do. I think there may be a lot of influence on Xi Jinping.
Moderator: Yes, so this is why, very often people feel that this diplomats in foreign countries, in the international arena, how to say the words are similar to the gangster rascals say. What we don’t eat your way ah.
Li Nanyang: Yes, yes, yes. When you heard Zhang Yuzhen cursing for the first time, I was simply dumbfounded, I have never heard people cursing so much in my life. Now I think this kind of war wolf diplomacy is a little bit like the Cultural Revolution, whoever speaks the dirtiest words is the most revolutionary. And it is a kind of virtue that is most revered, and this virtue I think comes from the fact that the basic power of the Communist Party is the peasants, and then the intellectuals are all rolled away.
Theories are pale and the tree of life is evergreen
Moderator: So you think that in retrospect, you do these things what is the greatest significance?
Li Nanyang: I just keep thinking of the saying that theory is pale, but the tree of life is evergreen. Many people think that domestic research theory, some old professors think I am a bit superficial. That is, I just get these materials, I do not go to do research. In fact, frankly speaking, I am not interested in theory at all. I think the theory is just a passing fog, and sometimes the theory is particularly harmful to people.
You see, like Marxist theory or something, you see the world to the whole. You like Trump he has no theory, he just do real work. I think when you do something practical, it’s good for the world and for humanity. You have to emphasize a theory, now what is the Green New Deal, you have to emphasize a theory of equality for all, it is actually very obstructive.
The evergreen tree of life, I think, is that the life of the human body is always limited. And the evergreen tree of life is that if you record what you have experienced in your life, this makes your little tree, right, live a life in this world. You die, but the things you left behind will last longer than your life, and I think this will give more meaning to life.
I think Mr. Zhu Zheng said that he had written a book called “The Little Scholar’s Big Time”, and he said that the history of a hundred years is not written by historians, but by one small person to save it all. So Mr. Zhu Zheng said that although I am a small scholar, I live in a big era, and my chronicle is part of this big era.
So I think I have organized my father’s materials, and that is what my father left behind. Then what I left behind, because many people don’t write about it, makes it, I think it has a certain precious meaning in it. I wrote about my mother, I wrote about my stepmother, and both of them were vice-ministerial-level Communist Party cadres. I think this leaves a rather unique history. To be honest, this society is made up of one person at a time, and what is written down by one person is history. If you don’t write, this history will be a passing fog, the past is gone. If you write it down, you will have saved it.
So I think my two stories, and I think they’re much more fascinating than theories, right? How many ordinary people will read the theory? And the story, especially the further back you go across the era, the later people on the theory of your predecessors probably only individual professors, scholars will go to see. And the real story, the future young people will also go to see, because it is interesting, it is alive, right?
Moderator: I think it is not only a history, it has a great relevance. I have seen a lot of feedback from you, some of them are post-80s and post-90s. He also thinks that from your history, he saw what the real Communist Party was like, how the scourge of Communism, and I think even an example like your mother.
I think even your mother’s example. Back then, many of her young people went to Yan’an for the so-called communist stuff, which is similar to some of the leftist elites in the West now. It’s almost as if they hadn’t gone to Yan’an, or they might have …… enjoyed the freedom and wealth brought to them by the free world, and then gone after a communist theory that would overthrow and smash the existing system and the existing world. This is simply too magical, so I think you write this thing is particularly relevant.
Li Nanyang: Yes, and think about my mother, you disagree with her, you are the class enemy, you are the bourgeois ideology. Now it’s a racist, it’s a racist, that is, as long as you don’t have the same views as him, he goes to this set, it’s no different from the Communist Party. If you don’t agree with him, you are a class enemy, you are against the Communist Party. Now you disagree with him, you are a racist, you are a racist. In fact the thinking and the practice are exactly the same, very similar. So it’s evil, it’s not going to do any good.
Moderator: Yes, I think it’s really important to be especially wary of this scourge that has plagued China and is now plaguing the world. So this is something that we will have the opportunity to do a special episode later, Ms. Nanyang, to talk about the many chaos in Western society, which is actually very much related to communism. Of course, I don’t have time today, but thank you very much for sharing your family and national history with us today. And I heard that you might write again. Mr. Ding Dong said that your best work is probably still to come, and we are very much looking forward to it.
Li Nanyang: I hope I can write it now.
Moderator: You are writing the next book, right?
Li Nanyang: I’m writing this lawsuit now, because I think it’s a multinational lawsuit, and it’s interesting to see how the lawsuit ended up revealing some of the current situations in universities in the United States. It’s a very interesting story, because this lawsuit was actually very weak at the beginning. The lawsuit was filed from China to here, and then what was the final outcome? This can also reflect a lot of the so-called lawlessness in China, and the pros and cons of the legal system in the United States, I think it is quite interesting, this lawsuit.
Moderator: Okay, that’s all we have for today’s interview with you. I believe our viewers will have a lot of feelings and resonance when they hear your story, and we welcome them to leave comments below the show to talk about your feelings. Okay, thank you, Ms. Nanyang, and we’ll see you next time.
Nanyang Li: Thank you, thank you for listening, bye.
Host: Bye. Okay, viewers, thank you for watching this interview with Ms. Li Nanyang, see you next time.
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