The year 2021 coincides with the 100th anniversary of the founding of the Communist Party of China (CPC). This year also marks the 55th anniversary of Mao Zedong’s unprecedented Proletarian Cultural Revolution (Cultural Revolution). In line with the “glorious history” of the CCP over the past 100 years, the Beijing authorities have deliberately downplayed the disaster of the Cultural Revolution, known as the “Ten-Year Catastrophe,” in their newly released “A Brief History of the Communist Party of China,” while focusing on the “great achievements” made during the Cultural Revolution. In the newly released “A Brief History of the Chinese Communist Party”, it deliberately downplays the disaster of the Cultural Revolution, which is known as the “10-year catastrophe”, but focuses on the “great achievements” made during the Cultural Revolution and prominently promotes the “Chinese dream” of the “new era of Xi Jinping”, thus raising questions and concerns about the return of the Cultural Revolution. The “Great Famine,” in which hundreds of thousands of intellectuals were branded as rightists, the “Great Leap Forward” in industry and the “People’s Commune” in the countryside, and other radical communist movements led to the starvation of tens of millions of people, and the “Great Famine” in 1989. “The official propaganda has either downplayed or tabooed such historical tragedies as the brutal political struggles, the industrial “Great Leap Forward” and the “People’s Communization” of the countryside, which led to the starvation and death of tens of millions of lives, and the June 4 massacre in 1989. Although the CCP media has repeatedly stressed the need to “use history as a mirror” and “oppose historical nihilism in a clear-cut manner”.
Against this backdrop, Bao Tong, a former member of the CPC Central Committee who served as Zhao Ziyang’s political secretary before Beijing’s forceful crackdown on the student movement in 1989, recalled in a recent telephone interview with Voice of America the comments Marshal Ye Jianying made 45 years ago about the Cultural Revolution. He also recalled his impressions of Xi Zhongxun, a senior member of the Communist Party who returned to leadership after the end of the Cultural Revolution, and Mao Zedong’s persecution of Xi for “using novels against the Party.
The following is a transcript of Bao Tong’s interview with the Voice of America. The content of the interview represents his personal views.
Reporter: How do you see the history of the Cultural Revolution in the 100-year history of the Communist Party?
Bao Tong: I don’t know if the CCP Central Committee has changed its (conclusion) on this issue. I remember that decades ago, it was described as an unprecedented catastrophe. Unprecedented, that is, more than the previous history, the three emperors and five emperors, Pan Gu opened up the heavens and the earth since China has never had a catastrophe. This was probably how the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China evaluated it at that time. At that time, the person who first proposed this evaluation was probably Ye Jianying. My impression, my memory, is that Ye Jianying first described it as an unprecedented catastrophe. Later I remembered that this was the consistent official evaluation. As for whether it still stands now? As far as I remember from decades ago, Ye Jianying said that it was an unprecedented catastrophe.
If the current CCP Central Committee leader agrees with Ye Jianying, then I think this evaluation should not change. If he thinks that Ye Jianying is talking nonsense, then I think he will make his own evaluation of the Cultural Revolution. Exactly how the evaluation will be made, I don’t know. I’m waiting to read and study the great article of the top leaders about the 100 years (of the founding of the CCP).
Reporter: A few years ago, this textbook was changed and the word “mistake” was removed from it. The historical mistake of the Cultural Revolution was described as “arduous exploration”. Now it has been changed back again, and it is described as a “civil unrest”. What does this mean?
Bao Tong: I don’t think this repetition is an indication that the top leaders of the Communist Party are wavering. I think this is some people who are playing with their pens, who have nothing better to do than to do such things. I think that the top leader of the CPC Central Committee has always been firm. But those of him who play with words, his mouth has to move. So, he constantly says this today and that tomorrow, and there is no accuracy. It is not worth mentioning, not surprisingly.
Reporter: Under Mao’s rule, Mr. Xi Zhongxun was always targeted for struggle, “using novels against the Party”, and so on, and was imprisoned for so long. During the Cultural Revolution, he was dragged out by the masses to fight again. The photos are all inside, with pictures to prove it. Do you think the original Ye Jianying or the historical documents were finalized, and you think it will be turned over? Did he have this idea? Or should do so?
Bao Tong: I don’t know about this. Mr. Xi Zhongxun, my impression is that in 1962, he was in Beidaihe, right, for a meeting. In the summer of 1962, Mao Zedong suddenly talked about the situation of class struggle and contradictions. He said a few words and criticized a few people. I remember that year criticized Deng Zichuan, criticized him for the package to the household. Criticize Deng Zichuan, actually approved two people —– Liu Shaoqi and Deng Xiaoping, because Liu Shaoqi and Deng Xiaoping in Beijing to support Deng Zichuan package to the household. Mao Zedong pretended not to know, ran to Beidaihe, approved Deng Zichuan. Not point Liu Shaoqi and Deng Xiaoping’s name, so Liu Shaoqi and Deng Xiaoping escaped a disaster.
One more thing, is not satisfied with the State Council, not satisfied with the Secretariat. So he said in Beidaihe, now there are two independent kingdoms, one is called the Planning Commission, is Li Fuchun. Another independent kingdom is the Central Organization Department, which is An Ziwen. He named these two people. When he talks about Li Fuchun, he is actually talking about Zhou Enlai. He spoke of An Ziwen, actually speaking of Deng Xiaoping. This matter later he did not mention again. Li Fuchun, Deng Xiaoping quickly review, quickly follow the well. This thing is finished. This is the second thing in Beidaihe.
The third thing, a meeting in Beidaihe, Kang Sheng raised again. Why Kang Sheng raised it? The first thing is that the government has been working on a new project for a long time. The wife of Liu Jingfan wrote what the struggle in the northwest, this thing is not to Gao Gang to reopen the case? It seems that this thing also has Xi Zhongxun support. Yan Hongyan so a revelation, Kang Sheng wrote a note to Mao Zedong, said there is such a thing, said the use of novels against the party, is a big invention, or a big something. Mao Zedong was on fire, and said a lot, that there is an anti-party group, called Xi Jia Liu anti-party group, Xi Zhongxun, Jia Tuofu, Liu Jingfan. He said it was Peng Gaorao (Peng Dehuai, Gao Gang, Rao Shushi) anti-party group, is the head office, the branch called Xi Jia Liu anti-party group, Xi Zhongxun, Jia Tuofu, Liu Jingfan. This is to rectify Xi Jia Liu.
The company’s main business is to provide a wide range of products and services to the public. The company’s main business is to promote the development of the company’s products and services. The Vice Premier, Comrade Xi Zhongxun, was assigned to work in some factory in Luoyang (mining machine factory). I have the impression that from 1962 to 65, he was assigned, and after 66, the Cultural Revolution, I’m not sure how the whole thing went, because I was also in the process of being rectified myself, and I’m not sure what happened to Comrade Xi Zhongxun.
Later, in 1980 or ’79, he came back to Guangdong as the first secretary. At that time, the first secretary of Guangdong was Xi Zhongxun, the second secretary was Yang Shangkun, and (later) the president Yang Shangkun was the second secretary. At that time, I remember that was the case. Later (Xi Zhongxun) was transferred back. When he came back, he became the Standing Secretary of the Secretariat of the CPC Central Committee. The first secretary of the Secretariat was Hu Yaobang. If Hu Yaobang was away from Beijing on business, the work in Beijing was presided over by Xi Zhongxun.
Xi Zhongxun is a very kind person. When he saw people, any people, even young people like me, oh yes, now I am old, also 80 or 90 years old. At that time I was young, see me also nod, shake hands. He was very easy-going, and when he saw anyone, he arched his hand and said hello, hello, very easy-going.
What was particularly important about him was that he said, “I advocate that China should have a law. This law should protect different opinions. He made this opinion, which made me respectful. I think there is nothing great about China’s problems, that is, there is no room for dissent. Xi Zhongxun said that China should have a law to protect dissenting opinions, which I think captures the root of all problems in China. Once this problem is solved, I think all of China’s problems are solved. I think China’s politics will be clearer if people are happier and less fearful, if the government’s way of speaking is open, if public sentiment can be conveyed, and if leaders are not dazed. In a word, as long as we can protect different opinions, all the problems in China will be solved. That’s why I admire Xi Zhongxun. This one sentence of his can solve all the problems in China, there is no problem that can not be solved, better than a thousand words of others.
Reporter: Xi Zhongxun’s family was also persecuted, during the Cultural Revolution, right?
He was persecuted for at least 13 years, from 1962 to ’65. He was unlucky again during the Cultural Revolution. He was persecuted for ten years during the Cultural Revolution.
Reporter: Their family was also a victim of the Cultural Revolution, or the extreme leftist line. Their family knows it well?
Bao Tong: Yes. For sure his family was a big victim. It was a great victim of Mao Zedong. If the Cultural Revolution was ten years, his father added three more years, from 62 to 65, then 66 to 76, and in 76 his father had not yet been liberated. My impression is that his father was liberated in 79 or 80.
Reporter: His subsequent comeback was directly related to Hu Yaobang’s vindication of wrongdoings, right?
Bao Tong: Of course. Yiao Bang was the first one to vindicate the unjust and wrongful cases. Yiao Bang was supported by Hua Guofeng. It was supported by Ye Jianying. Later, Deng Xiaoping also supported it more or less. Some of Deng Xiaoping’s disapproval. Like the vindication of the rightists, Deng Xiaoping disapproved. Deng Xiaoping said, the rightists 99.99% vindicated, (anti-right) or correct. Really, Deng Xiaoping does not support. But Hua Guofeng also supported. Including Xi Zhongxun out of work, is also supported by Hua Guofeng. At that time, Yaobang was a minister of organization, not the general secretary of the Central Committee, nor the chairman. A minister of organization to vindicate such a big thing not through President Hua, not through Vice President Ye Jianying line? Of course, they supported it.
Reporter: How was the relationship between Xi Zhongxun and Zhao Ziyang? How do you think they cooperated in their work?
Bao Tong: It was very good. I’ve never heard of any conflict between them. Of course, I do not inquire about such conflicts. Some people talk about Zhang San Li Si, and when I hear such things, I avoid them. I am not interested in these things. At that time, I thought that the leaders seemed to be quite good. I never felt that any leader was fighting with any other leader. I didn’t feel this way at that time. Maybe I didn’t have a high awareness at that time. Anyway, I didn’t see it. I did not see that Ziyang and Xi Zhongxun have any different opinions.
Xi Zhongxun sometimes even called me, saying you come to me, I went. He said, there are a few words you say to Ziyang. Then I will go back and talk to Ziyang. There are these things. So you can see that they are still very cordial. There is no conflict. Right? He had some idea that he was too old and couldn’t walk anymore, so he called me. He said, “Please come here, it’s very polite. He said, “Please come, I’ll go. When I went to his house, his wife and girls were at home.
Reporter: Was Xi Zhongxun’s attitude toward the June Fourth Incident also very distinct? Did he have a very different attitude from both Deng and Li Peng? Do you think he would have agreed with the conclusion that Ziyang was removed from office and was branded as a splinter party? Did he have some uneven remarks?
Bao Tong: I don’t know about that. What I don’t know, I can’t, I can’t (answer), because I was arrested before June 4. I was in Qincheng. How do I know these things?
Reporter: But his attitude towards June 4, was he against the shooting?
Bao Tong: I don’t know. I do not know. I dare not say anything. It would be irresponsible to talk nonsense. I just don’t know.
(Reporter’s note: 1. In May 1989, before Beijing’s forceful crackdown on the student movement, Bao Tong was arrested and became the highest-ranking Chinese Communist official arrested at the time, and spent seven years in Qincheng prison. After his release from prison, his personal freedom and communications remained under permanent surveillance. He was restricted in his freedom of movement and banned from commenting on the foreign media during sensitive periods such as the Beijing sessions, Qingming Festival, and June 4. (2. Q&A is based on recorded interviews; interviewees’ views do not represent those of the Voice of America)
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